Hey.... wait a minute! I've found 1050 boxes and 108 HH (not a true
accurate account since I haven't tallied since before the DEP gather).

;-)
Music Woman



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Love that idea and wish someone would do just that! Did you know that
there is another list serve that is set up with a sitrep database (but
not nearly so complex as the one you described)? It's called
NewAgeLetterboxing and it has a database where folks can post when a
box was found, the condition it was in, and whether it is a good one
to bring kids on. It's a pretty new site (a few months I think) and
there are already over 400 boxes entered. Hope you'll think about
joining. E-mail me offlist if you want more info.
Nautilus

I agree, but this sounds a lot like the database idea that
many were against. Nebraska has a website that provides
a place to make log entries for each letterbox which I
think is pretty nice. Take a look at:

http://interbug.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/interbug/lbnewiki/wiki.pl

Silver Eagle

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "samanark"
wrote:
> Here's an idea for a new letterboxing website:
>
> A website that addresses a need that is out there.
>
> The majority of talk on the yahoo groups is about which letterboxes
> have been found, which letterboxes are missing, which letterboxes
are
> damaged etc etc.
>
> Wouldn't it be great to have a website that tracks the found
> letterboxes. You could
> search for specific letterboxes to see who found them and when. You
> could see which parts of the country were busiest! Connecticut had
> 100 boxes found today and California only had 12 boxes found! Each
> person could input the data the way they do on the LBNA site with
> planted letterboxes.
> This would keep track of a person's F-count too!
> You could immediately see that Music Woman has found 850
letterboxes
> and 100 hitchhikers.
> You could search for a specific box and see that it was found on
Oct.
> 3rd by Silent Doug, his 629th find. Another box was found on Sept.
> 31st by Wanda and Pete, their 2014th find.
>
> It would be great!!
> I would definitely use a website like that. You could immediately
> pull up your own placed letterboxes and see that they had had
> visitors! And extras like This day in History and Weather links
would
> fit in perfectly.
>
> It could be the Sitrep LETTERBOXING SITE!
> Sign me up!
> -Amanda from Seattle

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote:
> there is another list serve that is set up with a sitrep database
(but
> not nearly so complex as the one you described)? It's called
> NewAgeLetterboxing and it has a database where folks can post when a
> box was found, the condition it was in, and whether it is a good one
> to bring kids on.

Also, several folks have options on their personal letterboxing
websites where you can comment about a box or update the status of a
box, so there is a limited amount of this type of thing already going
on out there.

I especially like the idea of being able to track
where letterboxing is happening. I am sure Connecticut
gets a lot of action. But it would be neat to see that
last week there was a gathering in Ohio and the
letterbox finds spiked there on that day! Or in
January, Connecticut being blanketed under massive
snow storms had very few letterboxes found (only 8 on one sad day) and
California edged ahead of the pack with 182 finds on
January 12th!
Stuff like that would be really neat to know!


I just thought that for some people who were hoping to "hone their
computer skills" that the challenge of creating something like
this...something NEW, would be fun. I wish I had the computer skills
to put something like this together!

-Amanda from Seattle

People were against the fact that anyone could say "I couldn't find it,
therefore it is missing." My idea is for 'status reports' to be filtered by
the owner of the box, and the status icon to ONLY be changed by the owner
and no one else.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "sileagle1"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:19 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: A new letterboxing website idea!!


> I agree, but this sounds a lot like the database idea that
> many were against. Nebraska has a website that provides
> a place to make log entries for each letterbox which I
> think is pretty nice. Take a look at:
>
> http://interbug.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/interbug/lbnewiki/wiki.pl
>
> Silver Eagle
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "samanark"
> wrote:
> > Here's an idea for a new letterboxing website:
> >
> > A website that addresses a need that is out there.
> >
> > The majority of talk on the yahoo groups is about which letterboxes
> > have been found, which letterboxes are missing, which letterboxes
> are
> > damaged etc etc.
> >
> > Wouldn't it be great to have a website that tracks the found
> > letterboxes. You could
> > search for specific letterboxes to see who found them and when. You
> > could see which parts of the country were busiest! Connecticut had
> > 100 boxes found today and California only had 12 boxes found! Each
> > person could input the data the way they do on the LBNA site with
> > planted letterboxes.
> > This would keep track of a person's F-count too!
> > You could immediately see that Music Woman has found 850
> letterboxes
> > and 100 hitchhikers.
> > You could search for a specific box and see that it was found on
> Oct.
> > 3rd by Silent Doug, his 629th find. Another box was found on Sept.
> > 31st by Wanda and Pete, their 2014th find.
> >
> > It would be great!!
> > I would definitely use a website like that. You could immediately
> > pull up your own placed letterboxes and see that they had had
> > visitors! And extras like This day in History and Weather links
> would
> > fit in perfectly.
> >
> > It could be the Sitrep LETTERBOXING SITE!
> > Sign me up!
> > -Amanda from Seattle
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

OOHH.... I like this!!!!! I like these letterbox logs!!!! I wonder if we
could do this in CT?

Music Woman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> People were against the fact that anyone could say "I couldn't find
> it, therefore it is missing." My idea is for 'status reports' to
> be filtered by the owner of the box, and the status icon to ONLY be
> changed by the owner and no one else.

That's one option for addressing that issue, but the idea Amanda
presented doesn't have that inherent flaw--she's only suggested a
list of boxes that people have found, not boxes they've looked for
but failed to find and might be interested. A status report that
only the owner can change only works if the owner sticks around to
keep it up to date. Based on the number of orphaned boxes, I'm
wondering how well it'll work in practice. The theory is great,
though.

On my clues, I always include the last known date I have for when the
box was found. What are the chances that a box placed five years ago
is still there? I don't know, but if somebody found it last weekend,
I'd bet the chances are pretty good that it's still there. Which is
why I place to place that information in my clue. (I also include
the last known status of my box, so it gives the reader an idea of
how out of date the status might be.)

So the idea Amanda is promoting isn't about tracking the status of
the box per se, but rather a method where people can record the boxes
they've found on an online medium. Instead of posting to the message
board, "I've found XYZ box!", they click a button on the website
logging their find and anyone that's interested in the box can do a
search for it. Perhaps even allow the owner or creator of the box
get an auto-generated e-mail letting them know their box was found
recently.

-- Ryan

The Website is going to cover the entire USA, it just takes time to add each
state in.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Re: A new letterboxing website idea!!


> OOHH.... I like this!!!!! I like these letterbox logs!!!! I wonder if we
> could do this in CT?
>
> Music Woman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Close to what I was planning on doing actually. But, since I see a
potential for people to use this as an online indicator of their PFX number,
I feel that a bit more control is needed in the entry of boxes in that
anyone is not allowed to just enter a box and say they found it. But that
they can pick from existing boxes and mark that as found in their personal
records. And then chose to make these records public or not. And I
realize, before you say anything, that someone can come to the website and
click "I found it" without ever leaving their house or chair for that
matter. It's not that I don't trust people, it's just that I'm trying to
make this as workable as possible.

Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "rscarpen"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:49 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: A new letterboxing website idea!!


> > People were against the fact that anyone could say "I couldn't find
> > it, therefore it is missing." My idea is for 'status reports' to
> > be filtered by the owner of the box, and the status icon to ONLY be
> > changed by the owner and no one else.
>
> That's one option for addressing that issue, but the idea Amanda
> presented doesn't have that inherent flaw--she's only suggested a
> list of boxes that people have found, not boxes they've looked for
> but failed to find and might be interested. A status report that
> only the owner can change only works if the owner sticks around to
> keep it up to date. Based on the number of orphaned boxes, I'm
> wondering how well it'll work in practice. The theory is great,
> though.
>
> On my clues, I always include the last known date I have for when the
> box was found. What are the chances that a box placed five years ago
> is still there? I don't know, but if somebody found it last weekend,
> I'd bet the chances are pretty good that it's still there. Which is
> why I place to place that information in my clue. (I also include
> the last known status of my box, so it gives the reader an idea of
> how out of date the status might be.)
>
> So the idea Amanda is promoting isn't about tracking the status of
> the box per se, but rather a method where people can record the boxes
> they've found on an online medium. Instead of posting to the message
> board, "I've found XYZ box!", they click a button on the website
> logging their find and anyone that's interested in the box can do a
> search for it. Perhaps even allow the owner or creator of the box
> get an auto-generated e-mail letting them know their box was found
> recently.
>
> -- Ryan
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

But, if people really wanted an online system to keep track of their
PFX number, this would only work for letterboxers just starting out.
LLetterboxers who have been at this for a few years already have
found lots of boxes that are long defunct and therefore would have no
reason to be in the database of boxes, right?

-Jugglermouse

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Steve S." wrote:
> Close to what I was planning on doing actually. But, since I see a
> potential for people to use this as an online indicator of their
PFX number,
> I feel that a bit more control is needed in the entry of boxes in
that
> anyone is not allowed to just enter a box and say they found it.
But that
> they can pick from existing boxes and mark that as found in their
personal
> records. And then chose to make these records public or not. And I
> realize, before you say anything, that someone can come to the
website and
> click "I found it" without ever leaving their house or chair for
that
> matter. It's not that I don't trust people, it's just that I'm
trying to
> make this as workable as possible.

> So the idea Amanda is promoting isn't about tracking the status of
> the box per se, but rather a method where people can record the
boxes
> they've found on an online medium. Instead of posting to the
message
> board, "I've found XYZ box!", they click a button on the website
> logging their find and anyone that's interested in the box can do a
> search for it. Perhaps even allow the owner or creator of the box
> get an auto-generated e-mail letting them know their box was found
> recently.
>
> -- Ryan

I guess I don't see the difference between this idea and the
database idea proposed a few months ago that got everyone
in such an uproar. So much so that the Newage Letterboxing
Talklist had to be formed with its own database.
If I remember correctly, many people not only objected
to missing box reports, but ANY box reports, found or not,
in a public forum.
It seems to me that if all you want to do is keep track of
found boxes, the database could do that by eliminating the
status and comment fields and assume all entries are found
boxes.
I would love this because a lot of the fun for me in
letterboxing is hearing that my boxes have been visited
and like Ryan, I update my own clue pages to reflect last
known visits. The best is when I get personal emails from
visitors, but that does not happen as much as I would like.

Silver Eagle

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "jugglermouse"
wrote:
> But, if people really wanted an online system to keep track of
their
> PFX number, this would only work for letterboxers just starting
out.
> LLetterboxers who have been at this for a few years already have
> found lots of boxes that are long defunct and therefore would have
no
> reason to be in the database of boxes, right?
>
> -Jugglermouse

This is a great point! Also people like Music Woman and Wanda & Pete
who have already found tons of boxes would have to go in and record
all those boxes found and that would be incredibly tedious!

So of course this is not going to be a totally accurate count of
someone's F count. (personally, I think all F counts are relative
anyway. Some people count hitchhikers some people don't --some people
count boxes exchanged at events, some people don't --some people
count boxes sent to them to be planted, but made by other people as
finds --some people don't...It's all relative)

Also, I don't think Mystery Boxes should be included in the
Where...except for the one's on a State by State level. I found the
Washington State Mystery Box in Washington State today. This would
not give away the location of the box. If a Mystery Box is a mystery
as to where in the world, then it should not be reflected in a Where
stuff was found today database.

-Amanda from Seattle

> But that they can pick from existing boxes and mark that as found

Not all boxes are listed as clues on the Internet, though. There's
no single source for ALL clues and there never will be, and for
accurate (I use the term loosely, here) PFX counts, you've still got
to allow people to account for boxes that aren't listed anywhere.

PFX counts are largely on the honor system, but if people start
making too many untrue claims, eventually it'll come back to haunt
them. Someone that starts claiming a hundred finds but strangely
aren't stamped into many logbooks and have little to show for their
efforts at gatherings will start having a serious lack of credibility.

I'm all for honest PFX counts, but I don't think you'll be able to
patrol it successfully. It boils down to being part of the honor
system. It's not perfect, but I don't see much to improve the
situation.

-- Ryan

I posted a long, nice reply to your message, Silver Eagle, but the
darn computer ate it and now I'm annoyed. *grumbling*

> I guess I don't see the difference between this idea and the
> database idea proposed a few months ago that got everyone
> in such an uproar.

The uproar a few months ago was more about how to account for missing
boxes. When should a box really be called missing? Just because
one, two, or even a dozen people haven't found it doesn't make it
missing.

Since so satisfactory answer could be made for how to update the
status of a box, the idea was dropped.

But this idea is, at it's core, nothing more than a virtual logbook--
which is already alive and well, but scattered among individual
websites. Amanda from Seattle has one, Brett has one, someone named
Jess (don't know who she is) has one. Brett actually has a list of
all his finds, placed, exchages, event stamps, and so on. Very
thorough, that Brett. =)

Even this board is a virtual logbook of sorts. One could go back and
recreate the boxes found and placed of many active letterboxers.
Certainly not as well organized as the personal pages are, though.

> If I remember correctly, many people not only objected
> to missing box reports, but ANY box reports, found or not,

That's just a losing battle. Box reports have been happening since
day one, they're going on today, and will continue until the end of
time. May as well try to catch a waterfall with your hands.

> It seems to me that if all you want to do is keep track of
> found boxes, the database could do that by eliminating the
> status and comment fields and assume all entries are found
> boxes.

What database is this you're talking about? I have a hunch I must
have missed this development while I was offline on the trail.

-- Ryan

> What database is this you're talking about? I have a hunch I must
> have missed this development while I was offline on the trail.
>
> -- Ryan

If you click on Database on the left side of the talklist you
will see a table called Box Status. This contains the
infamous list of boxes that people have found or not found.
Perhaps a new table could be created called Letterbox Logbook
with just the fields desired (e.g. Box Name, Placer, State, Date
Found). Then you could search by Placer or State or Box, etc.
There are some who would still not like even this much info.
about their boxes being displayed, but I would welcome it.

Silver Eagle

P.S. Congrats on completing the AT!

My two cents: I am not interested in a database that shows
when boxes were found and what condition they were in. If you
need that much certainty before you set out, why are you
letterboxing? Secondly, the idea of having to update the status of
my boxes online is not attractive. I don't want to spend that much
of my free time on the computer!

Third, "box missing" reports, in my experience, are often wrong. I
just found the Three Sisters Light letterbox in Eastham, MA, this
weekend, but another letterboxer emailed me that she couldn't
find it. It was tricky, to be sure, but it is there. So what would be
the point of someone listing it as missing in a database, when it
is actually there? Ditto for the This American Life Box in Boston.
I just looked at the LBNA database. Someone reported it
missing on 9/12. But it's not missing. I actually found it on 9/25.

Part of the fun and the appeal is the unknown factor--will you find
it or won't you? As far as box condition goes, it's always one of
the same few things: dry and OK; wet; needs a new logbook, etc.
Just email the placer and let them know. Or, carry a supply of
paper towels and Ziplocs so you can do box maintenance on the
trail.

Sorry to be contrary, but I thought I'd put my thoughts out there, in
case I'm not the only one who finds the idea of a status database
unappealing.

Bonnie

Thanks Bonnie for your opinion - which just happens to echo my thoughts. Part of the mystery surrounding letterboxing will be gone, in my opinion, if we publish every last fact about a given box. Even if a box is gone, isn't it great just being out there? Hiking is good, too, just for the sake of the hike! ;)

Sometimes I think we are too concerned about the numbers and might miss the whole, original intent!

Have fun and just get out there & box.



Mark Pepe

[The Pepe's & Davidow's]
http://pepeanddavidow.blogspot.com/

> Sorry to be contrary, but I thought I'd put my thoughts out there,
> in case I'm not the only one who finds the idea of a status
> database unappealing.

This idea has NOTHING to do with the status of a box. It's a virtual
logbook so people can say they've found boxes--which is no different
than people are already doing except puts them all in the same place
instead of scattered across the web. Instead of having to be there
in person to show off your logbook, you can do it online where you
can show it off to anyone around the entire country.

You don't have to update the status of a box. You don't have read
what other people have found. (Which you DO, at the moment, when
they post finds on the talk list.) Please understand, this is not a
rehashing of how to determine the status of a letterbox--it's a
completely different concept that doesn't address the box status
controversy.

-- Ryan